Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

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Morbus
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:49 pm

Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Morbus » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:19 pm

I'll try to make it short.

We tried to make agility and aim more relevant by boosting their effect on offense, defense and damage equations. However, this didn't just boost PFs, but also mages and hybrids, who, for instance, started to go for high agility and became absurdly hard to hit as a result.

So how can we really carve out the PF's niche as a warrior that relies on his physical characteristics over magic, without further boosting mages and hybrids? Well, PFs don't have a dump stat. They commit to three stats over a mage's two and we could reward them for their commitment by creating a synergy between those stats – agility, aim and might.

It could look like this:
Aim is boosted by up to 50% by agility.
Might is boosted by up to 50% by aim.
Agility is boosted by up to 50% by might.

50% is an arbitrary number that could be tweaked or even be a server setting. 50% is obviously on the high end.

That boosts...
50 might, 50 agility and 50 aim to 75 might, 75 agility and 75 aim and
50 might, 50 agility and 1 aim to 50 might, 75 agility and 1 aim, while
1 might, 50 agility and 1 aim remains the same.

Lorewise, it would kinda make sense:
You may have great aim, but if you aren't agile, you may not be fast enough to align your shots quickly enough to hit in combat, hence, agility helps aim.
You may be powerful, but if you don't have good aim, you may not be able to apply force the most effective way, hence, aim helps might.
You may be agile, but if you are too weak, your movement may be hindered by your armor and inventory, hence, might helps agility.

We could also have a cutoff and have the boost scale from 0% at 25 stat to 50% at 50 stat, which would make stat choices even more competitive and make for some really tough choices.

The boosted effect could be calculated and displayed in different ways. It could be hidden from the player and merged into the actual equations, or it could be directly calculated into the displayed stat with the label reading "50 + 25". (Stat caps would obviously have to be raised). I'd kinda prefer the latter.

Feedback welcome (as always).
Tegin
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 am

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Tegin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:00 am

Sounds interesting. Why not give it a try?
Are you talking about base stat or modified stat via gg might or fractions?

The only Problem i see is with high strenght and aim characters.
These got 1 to 10 agility and this would provide them with 26 to 36 agility.

Maybe the boosts should just work on stats (receiving and delivering) over 35 or 40
or the stats boost works only on chars which have lower magic and or intelecct than 35 or something like that.
Morbus
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:49 pm

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Morbus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:21 pm

There isn't really a difference between base stats and modified stats for any practical application. It's really just a display issue, apart from that the game bases any calculations I can think of on the final value. For instance, a 30 might + SS char hits just as hard as a guy with 50 natural might and enjoys the same benefits to weight limit and soft caps. That said, since there is no real way to distinguish base stats from modified stats apart from the buff icon or the fact that you're wearing a GG/shield, I'd like to have a visually distinct way to display the bonus from synergy to keep confusion at a minimum.

As for the bonus, I'd like it to scale the affected stat multiplicatively, not add a flat bonus. That means that a 50 might char wouldn't just get a 25 point bonus to his agility, but his agility would be multiplied by 150%. 1 agility becomes 1.5 (rounded down to 1) and 10 agility becomes 15 agility.

Does that sound better? :)
Tegin
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 am

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Tegin » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:39 am

Thats sounds really nice :)
if someone has 50 aim gets the bonus would it be -> (50 + 5 + 20 str) * 150% = 112,5 or (50 * 150%) + 5 + 20 = 100 ...thats a lot of power
could we then change the skin color to green and let him rip his clothes? :lol:

But i got one more question i think Delirium once stated that all stats are capped at 70 and the bonus dmg from stats are capped at 60 is this still the case?
Morbus
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:49 pm

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Morbus » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:54 pm

Indeed! :D

I'd definitely go with calculation No 2 and only scale the base stat. It's really only supposed to be a bonus for people who hard commit to physical stats, not grant a bonus to other buffs. I also find 100 to be a pretty number that would be juuuust achievable by a super dedicated build. Long term, I'd still like to go with a very old suggestion of mine that would add a 20 point stat bonus to free action (+20 agility) and eagle eyes (+20 aim) to make those buffs viable outside of PvP and encourage people who are PvEing to be more prepared for a getting-jumped kind of situation (and make random PK situations more interesting and less one sided). That would allow all three stats to enjoy the full range from 1 to 100.

The stats are indeed capped at 70 at the moment, and last time I checked, damage would scale up to 65, resulting in a 40% boost, compared to a 0% boost from 1 to 25, gonna have to check the code again on that one since we were discussing that a lot in the past and I'm not sure what or if anything has been changed.

Introducing synergy would go hand in hand with revisiting that concept and tweaking the damage spectrum accordingly. I'd suggest...
...increasing the cap to 100 (obviously).
...scaling damage all the way from 1 to 100 instead of 25 to 65.
...setting the top damage at 100 a bit higher than current top damage, but not much. (Possibly from 140% of base to 150%.)
...accordingly scale down current damage at lower stats.

Going with those general guidelines, damage could range from
... 51% at a primary stat of 1 and scale to 150% at 100. (Very aggressive scaling, resulting in a fairly harsh nerf of hybrid builds that don't benefit from synergy, since a stat of 50 no longer grants a damage bonus of 25% as before.)
...101% at a primary stat of 1 and scale to 150% at 100. (Fairly tame scaling, resulting in a damage buff in most cases.)

I'd personally like to see more aggressive scaling since it makes choices more meaningful and probably creates healthier builds, but in reality, we'd probably have to go with the second, more conservative approach, since people don't like nerfs. :P

Really happy to have at least one person discuss this with me btw. Thanks mate! :D
Delerium
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Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Delerium » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:44 pm

That said, since there is no real way to distinguish base stats from modified stats apart from the buff icon or the fact that you're wearing a GG/shield, I'd like to have a visually distinct way to display the bonus from synergy to keep confusion at a minimum.
If we want to display either this or scaled stats in a graphical way I think we could probably color part of the stat bar to signify the 'bonus' part, so 30 might + SS would show green bar up to 30, then orange to 50 (and 3rd color for scaling/synergy). I'm fairly sure this is possible in both UIs, definitely in classic and Ogre's UI is pretty good with customisation so I suspect it'd work.
I'd still like to go with a very old suggestion of mine that would add a 20 point stat bonus to free action (+20 agility) and eagle eyes (+20 aim)
IIRC we were going to have +10 for each of SS, FA and EE? Would free up more use of stat boosting elsewhere, I think if we moved the cap to 100 we would definitely want +20.

Nerfing hybrid builds even a little might not sit well with PvPers as you've pointed out, and most characters are technically hybrids with varying amounts dumped into int/myst (even most PFs, which tend to lower might, aim or agil to have 50 stam). I think we do need to do something like this to boost PFs, imo providing the stat synergy bonus with as little impact as possible on all other characters would be the way to go.
Morbus
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:49 pm

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Morbus » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:02 am

IIRC we were going to have +10 for each of SS, FA and EE? Would free up more use of stat boosting elsewhere, I think if we moved the cap to 100 we would definitely want +20.
Yeah, we were somewhat worried about stat inflation, so I believe we ended up considering +10 stat buffs to work with the current game. I absolutely agree that +20 would only make sense if we went for the extended cap.
I think we do need to do something like this to boost PFs, imo providing the stat synergy bonus with as little impact as possible on all other characters would be the way to go.
What about this then:
SS, FA and EE boost by 10 points instead of 20.
SS adds some extra carry capacity to make up for the 10 lost might.
We keep the same boost triangle (agility still boosts aim, aim still boosts might and might still boosts agility), but instead of a direct scale, we only consider stats 40+, each point boosting the boosted stat by 2%.
That means that 45 might boosts 50 agility to 55, while 50 might would boost the same agility to 60.
With 50, 50, 50 stats, buffs up and a soldier shield, that would put a PF at 75 might and aim.
Stats cap at 75, damage scales all the way to 75, from 100% at 25 stat to 150% at 75 stat, leaving the current damage unchanged, but allowing PFs to reach higher max damage.
That makes stat choices reaaally competitive and could even result in an aggressive PF with 40 stamina or create a distinction between a ranged build (50agi, 50aim, 40might), a melee offensive build (50 might, 50 aim, 40 agility) and a defensive build (50 might, 50 agility, 40 aim).
If we want that effect to be more pronounced, we could also up the bonus to 3% or 4%. Stat caps could be increased accordingly.


And just as food for thought, an entirely different approach:
We could simply create a scale factor (might-40)*(aim-40)*(agility-40)*(stamina-40) and boost damage with that factor. Any PF stat below 41 would immediately reduce that bonus to 0, while a single stat at 45 instead of 50 would already half the bonus. That scale factor could boost damage, health regeneration or whatever else it is we feel PFs are lacking. If we want to allow some wiggle room, we could cap this scale factor at 2500, allowing the PF to go for 45 in two stats to get the 10 int required.
Tegin
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 am

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Tegin » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:49 am

what are the stats for a PF?
some say w6k6 some w6k6q2 for pvp or s2 for pvm

i would say you need 10 int and myst

on the g'old gilcon website there were different stats for the 2 school fighter
2 SCHOOL WARRIOR "PURE FIGHTER"
40.15.50.40.15.40 [6/30/2014, anonymous] w6k6 and 2 in another school 83 mana
40.10.50.50.10.40 [6/30/2014, anonymous] w6k6 69 mana
40.5.50.50.5.50 [6/30/2014, anonymous] w6k5 68mana
50.1.48.50.1.50 [6/30/2014, Gilroy] w5k5 54mana

so only the last spec would get all the benefits or the others have loose some stamina
Morbus
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:49 pm

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Morbus » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:51 am

I'd say the most traditional PF build is WC6K6 with
40 Might
10 Intellect
50 Stamina
49 Agility
1 Mysticism
50 Aim

That allows for max damage with SS and soldier shield without sacrificing anything else really, except for a point of aim or agility. A few points can be subtracted from agility or aim to put into mysticism for more frequent rebuffing.

With synergy changes, there wouldn't really be a clear build anymore I guess.
Tegin
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 am

Re: Idea to increase PF viabiltiy

Post by Tegin » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:07 am

I'll say just try it and if the result is too unbalanced you could switch the percentage.

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