Suggestions for improving map continuity

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EvilSibhod
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Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by EvilSibhod » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:19 pm

Image
http://imgur.com/KcQsibV

This is the current state of a composite of the mainland (not including underground areas which are overlapped by others, though I'll probably join all of Ko'Catan to the cave system and overlay that with the mainland composite - eventually)

Everything above the green line is pretty much set. Through a combined effort between Renratpiz (who provided a base of ~10 maps all joined and at uniform heights) and myself, everything above that line has been connected, set to proper elevations, and textured properly.

The next question is where to branch out from. Either head towards Tos from The Flatlands (which is essentially what I did in the linked image) but the red lines show where some issues start to arise. Some adjustments are easy, but the extent to which maps are moved, (I try to only translate them, and never rotate. The exceptions being CV will Have to be rotated 90 degrees in order to fit at all (and really it's just Outside Castle Victoria that rotates, because the rest of the maps already have the entrance at the south, not the west).

The connection between Cragged Mountains and Ukgoth has almost an entire maps worth of extra junk, but if I shift all the downstream maps (heading from Cragged -> Ukgoth -> Sentinel -> Ancient...) it ends up helping when you get back up to Off The Beaten Path -> Kings Way, which also has a large amount of extra sectors.

Heading this route there is an obvious Enormous gap between Cragged Mountains(2) -> King's Way (and you can sort of tell that the gap has to exist there because connecting those would smash Off The Beaten Path (1&2).
The next issue that stems from 'Route 1' (CN -> Flatlands ->MG Tos -> ... -> Ukgoth -> ... ->East/West Jasper) Is that now Jasper does not connect properly at all to the Forest of Farol / Sweet Grass Prairies.

So 'Route 2' comes into question. Should Jasper connect to The Lake of Jala's Song as depicted, or should it be located further North (adjacent to King's Way)? The issue that comes from 'Route 2' is then something that I failed to depict in that image- the 4 maps to the left of King's Way do not tie into the completed maps at all, in my opinion to the point where new maps will need to be inserted there.


SO: I'm asking for everyone's opinion on how to combine essentially the southern half of the game. (I have Flatlands -> Barloque -> Bourgeois Castle; done in a different file, but started this new one so I could fix elevation differences and textures as I went).
Delerium
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by Delerium » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:40 pm

Wow.. it does not fit together well at all. I'm not sure what the better option is in terms of connecting Jasper. The forest area between Cor Noth, Raza and Jasper is uninteresting enough that we could completely change it and add something useful besides the forest shrine there if we wanted. The original design map shows nothing much in that area either:

Image

We also have Jixa and a couple forest maps to insert somewhere (though I expect we'd redo/expand some of them), doesn't necessarily have to be east of Tos.
EvilSibhod
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by EvilSibhod » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:32 am

http://i.imgur.com/MJZq0JV.jpg

Updated composite - high resolution

My thoughts are to include the Deep Dark Woods of Tos somewhere between Tos, King's Way, BoB, and the Twisted Wood. It would scale in difficulty with the time of day, and at dusk the entrance And exit close (so if you're in the woods you're trapped unless you can teleport- and then between midnight and dawn you can't even teleport unless you kill the 'boss'?) because the woods are haunted.

Between the beach and BQ, add 'The Harbor of Barloque' (though I don't quite like that name) which has some beached (for now) ships that may offer transportation to the island (or other coastal cities?)?

If/When we ever introduce Hakka / Berg... I think one or both of those should be placed to the South West because that area is quite empty. Jixa can be connected through passing both screens of the Badlands, and Silver Lamp can be added past Cess' castle, or something around there. (Maybe only get To it via ship, but there is a path that leads south from it connecting to that fake jump in Kardde's Canyon? - that would have to be worked in though)

With the recent talk about adding SotH and Ao3 back to the game, I think the Necromancer quest should be to try and raise the city of brax from the earth. It would probably involve some new maps rather than just raising all the current ones - and the quest would involve doing something at the stone henge in Ukgoth (Recovering the Gold Urn and slaying Hunters there? or slaying Hunters and adding their blood to the Urn so they don't have to 'lure' them. Actually yeah, I'd have a quest to recover the Urn (which hunters will want to prevent but only the Necros get clues to the location) and then once recovering they would have to take it back to the necro guild. Hunters can then try and stop it, but they would have to fight the lich. If they die to the lich it adds like 1/4 hunter blood, but if they die to a necro it adds the full amount. The total goal being some factor based on population ect... Not sure where to go from there though because it comes off as sort of apocalyptic or end-game-ish. I'm not sure if we have enough (any?) players who care about this kind of stuff :(
I think if we make this all sufficiently difficult, it can buy time to implement a new city (probably Jixa) which opens as a result of hunters completely preventing Brax from returning or if they fail there is some quest for them to recover later.
Delerium
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by Delerium » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:46 am

EvilSibhod wrote:http://i.imgur.com/MJZq0JV.jpg

Updated composite - high resolution
Pretty cool... it's clear why some shortcuts are going to have to change given those massive gaps.
My thoughts are to include the Deep Dark Woods of Tos somewhere between Tos, King's Way, BoB, and the Twisted Wood. It would scale in difficulty with the time of day, and at dusk the entrance And exit close (so if you're in the woods you're trapped unless you can teleport- and then between midnight and dawn you can't even teleport unless you kill the 'boss'?) because the woods are haunted.
The map files forest1-forest5.roo are early copies of various existing forest maps, if you meant to use the existing Deep Dark Woods of Tos (forest4.roo) then I think we could make a better map and just use the name. The theme sounds pretty cool, and we could make something difficult to move through (maze like?) which would be more haunted woods-like than existing forest maps.
Between the beach and BQ, add 'The Harbor of Barloque' (though I don't quite like that name) which has some beached (for now) ships that may offer transportation to the island (or other coastal cities?)?
Something that has been brought up before is the lack of a level-appropriate screen for mollusks, perhaps if we're adding something in this area (old wrecked harbor expansion) we could work mollusks in somehow.
If/When we ever introduce Hakka / Berg... I think one or both of those should be placed to the South West because that area is quite empty. Jixa can be connected through passing both screens of the Badlands, and Silver Lamp can be added past Cess' castle, or something around there. (Maybe only get To it via ship, but there is a path that leads south from it connecting to that fake jump in Kardde's Canyon? - that would have to be worked in though)
Yeah building out eastward is going to be tricky, Silver Lamp (if we add it or something else there) would probably have to be accessible via Queen's Way, assuming all the cities were once connected via road. Same with Jixa - theoretically there should be a road or a broken road leading to it. Sativa's plans for how to get there show the most probable route except it cuts right through the middle of the Duke's castle (barring elevation differences). Another idea there is a path from Outskirts of Tos or a new exit in East Ende leading in that direction (East Ende needs a makeover anyway and Tyras has a preliminary version of that map done). The south-west area definitely could fit another city or something big.
With the recent talk about adding SotH and Ao3 back to the game, I think the Necromancer quest should be to try and raise the city of brax from the earth. It would probably involve some new maps rather than just raising all the current ones - and the quest would involve doing something at the stone henge in Ukgoth (Recovering the Gold Urn and slaying Hunters there? or slaying Hunters and adding their blood to the Urn so they don't have to 'lure' them. Actually yeah, I'd have a quest to recover the Urn (which hunters will want to prevent but only the Necros get clues to the location) and then once recovering they would have to take it back to the necro guild. Hunters can then try and stop it, but they would have to fight the lich. If they die to the lich it adds like 1/4 hunter blood, but if they die to a necro it adds the full amount. The total goal being some factor based on population ect... Not sure where to go from there though because it comes off as sort of apocalyptic or end-game-ish. I'm not sure if we have enough (any?) players who care about this kind of stuff :(
I think if we make this all sufficiently difficult, it can buy time to implement a new city (probably Jixa) which opens as a result of hunters completely preventing Brax from returning or if they fail there is some quest for them to recover later.
I like this, though yeah a raised Brax would be very difficult to implement. Even if the goal was to somehow teleport the city (to that blank area in the south-west? heh) or return it to its former glory I'm not sure we should modify/remove the current Brax maps (loss of the building spot plus the difficulty of doing it would be pretty high). I agree there does need to be an underlying reason for the necro/hunter scenario rather than just "kill the other guys", even if the players don't all appreciate it some of them will and it'll give it a reason to exist outside of boring PvP scenario.
Calamela
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by Calamela » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:17 am

I noticed something while at the feast hall. If you look at the plate of drumsticks, it mentions about the bird being of the avian species. If you look at a drumstick, it mentions that the bird was a large, southern bird. That must mean that the island has to be south of the mainland areas. Now, I noticed that the caves we use to get to the island seem to head north. Is this something that can be changed?
Calamela
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by Calamela » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:29 am

Sorry for double posting. I cant see any way to edit posts. Anyways, I do remember when going into Fams' cellar and into the secret passage that leads to the old Fams, theres this one area thats all boarded up. Maybe we can use it as a way to add a new area to the game..... or maybe Paddock has a hidden secret that was can uncover.....
EvilSibhod
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by EvilSibhod » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:26 pm

http://imgur.com/a/1ZY3Z

Unfortunately this is where the caves land when running North (per design). Smack dab on top of Barloque, putting the island a short swim away. Overall the caves connect pretty well- there are some overlapping areas but it is almost certainly due to elevation changes. The only spot that gave issue was Grog's and Brog's Antichambers end up a little too close together to properly connect to The Lair of the OPB, and they also push The Lair too far north for it to connect Alllll the way back to A Tranquil Place, which is off to the left of Warren Entrance- the first screen of the caves

Flipping the caves to run south instead also has issues with running into and through Brax (elevation changes can be argued, but it still does not feel right finding an ocean suddenly on what would be expected to be a more arid windward side of the mountains- IMO)

As for the food- I actually forgot there was a separate item between Turkey Leg and Drumstick. I guess it does make sense, from the description, for Drumstick to be Avar (let's hope they never find out), but the description could also mean 'southern' coast of the island. At least if I had to force it to work as-is, that is what I would say.
renratpiz
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by renratpiz » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:50 am

I have been working even more on the maps (as we speak, as a matter of fact), and I will be heading south from the Flatlands past Tos and around to Jasper. The land as it is forms almost a giant loop. I agree that the gaps need to be filled in, but I believe adding entirely new rooms to fill them really is the way to go. It will create something of a mini-expansion that will help to keep things fresh and interesting. As for the Deep Dark Woods of Tos, your idea is brilliant. To have that area only accessible at certain times, and to make it possible to be stuck there. Awesome!

I have a room I am adjusting to fill in the gap between the Cragged Mountains and the King's Way. It shouldn't take much, but I'll get to that once I finish making all the existing rooms fit together. We'll have a better idea then, too, of where the gaps are. There is going to be a LOT of empty space in the general area of the Forest of Farol. Especially since that is where the most elevation issues are present. Once I get to that area, we can begin speculating about how to fill it.

As for Jixa and points east, they appear to be on the other side of the Cragged Mountains. We could potentially expand the mountain range east ward, and then run it north and south to create something of a border. Then it's all eastward from there.
renratpiz
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by renratpiz » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:47 pm

The map is currently updated from The Great Ocean to Cor Noth, and then south along the King's Way and north to the Main Gate of Barloque.
HazZy
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Re: Suggestions for improving map continuity

Post by HazZy » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:23 am

I dont know the level of difficulty of these suggestions, but here's a few that have always stuck out to me:

1. Princess Castle (city name sp?):
as you approach this area (or even barloque) you get a feeling that you're entering the capital city area so to speak. But upon arriving at the castle of the great princess, anticipation of a beautiful city with lots to do is buzz killed by what seems like an overglorified, sub par suburban collosac that promises the world but delivers nothing as you try and open all the locked doors and traverse through the boarded up hall ways... The only reason you go there is to join the princess faction (and it's a one way trip quest....which makes it feel like NDS/3do planned to expand on this area more but never got around to it and the one way trip faction quests were temporary solutions).

Some ideas:
Take the locks off the rooms and re-use ideas like :
- Dukes feast Hall (inconsistent, "fun" reason to go there)
- NPC attraction (consistent, "practical" reason to go thdre like Frisconars in tos, there needs to be a simple n consistent reason to go there other than faction)
- Sewers (to connect to another city or even geographical location like a secret escape tunnel for your highness)
- Trashers, I've always liked the thrasher screen because of the building vertical versus horizontal contrast. Diablo has always done this well, and NDS nailed it with the 3 layer theme combined with the objective/reward incentive driven game play (levers, clear statues, maneuvering to the thrasher chest)

2. Sealers Peak and the Ice Caves:
With the exception of short term memory "issues" from forgetting which nodes you have because of all that dank elderberry kush that Tova sells...there is a lot going on here, lots of potential, but like the princess castle, a slow build up as you walk far away from town (the new Raza change helped with this a lot, genius idea by the way) into dead end, and very chore like objectives which youll do one time for a characterun (yeti node, scim quest, sealers node...and then the real kicker of inefficient and questionable moral design, being that creepy guy looking for some young innocent girl in the woods....I forgo looking for Miriana period..if she's not in the twisted woods, where I can say that I found this poor girl while protecting the city walls of toss from trolls, I just move on. Imagine moving to a new home in Jasper and knocking door to door explaining how ur a sex offender n then stumbling upon the rebels headquarters. STICK to th3 avar whores on island....just trust me on this one...

Some ideas:
Combine and mutate all four screens here. I like the layout of seafers peak, it's a really cool screen. Whenever I get the node I always think how I'd position/LoS myself or team in pvp scenarios. There's a lot of untappEd potential going on in this map. I think the pedifile trail that leads up to seafers and the trail to the yeti are a bit of a stretch...shortern them up or ev3n better, make multiple trails through these types of single screen rendevous...third screen of icky Caves is a good example that comes to mind.

3. Avar village, the riija temple - where is Carl Sagan when you need him:
I like the island but I feel like it could be so much more with simple but creative additions....I have more to say, but I need to organize my thoughts more before this turns into a wall of text that I wrote on my phone while waiting for her to finish her damn hair....and she finally finished (no, not Mariana u pervs) ;)

Unedited
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