Few issues

General game discussion, anything Meridian 59 related.
Post Reply
lostm59
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:31 pm

Few issues

Post by lostm59 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:41 pm

Illusionary form needs a slight fix, as any faction but duke its nearly impossible to use this spell. 2 Riija shrines a riija robe a herald and a riija sword and I still cannot get dusk rat.

Purge is nearly unusable, The effect itself isnt bad but I feel that 19 base mana is too high now that it take 4-5 to clean one target. I think a fair base mana would be 10 which would bring shal back into the fold without making it purge an auto win.

Invis rings being karma dependent was a change requested before the purge nerf, Since it takes 4-5 purges to remove buffs( and even then high modifier spells like aog/ee tend to stay up) I do not feel a shal with an invis ring is too over powered as it once was.

As it stands the game has reverted to the Ren build where 80% of characters have qor.
EvilSibhod
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:47 am
Location: United States

Re: Few issues

Post by EvilSibhod » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:50 pm

Before I go into detail- what kind of fix are you wanting for Illusionary form?

Casting riija spells at noon is -16 (negative) spellpower. Casting at midnight is +30 spellpower.
Bulk used / Bulk max in your inventory adds 0 to 10 spellpower
= 49 (99% ill form) + 12 (2 shrines at 6 each) + 12 (robe worst case at lvl 3) + 10 (sword) + 10 (shield)
93 = 49 + 12 + 12 + 10 + 10

Without doing the math, having the above items in your inventory will be at least 1 bonus spellpower, and worst case casting at noon = 78 spellpower. Best case full inventory (pick stuff up with SS then let SS end) and casting at noon = 133 capped at 99 spellpower.

Ill form checks monster level >= (spellpower - random(0,10)) and dusk rats are level 90, so even at 99 spellpower there is a 10% chance it will fail this roll.

All that math aside- it is a level three spell that gives you a 1/6 chance to poison on hit. Combined with even just one: archery or reflections- this becomes one of the more powerful level 3 spells.
Then when you consider all the monsters in the game, the only other level 90 monster is the Troll which is nowhere near as dangerous as a dusk rat.
(For information sake - scorpions have a 1/18 poison chance and spiders have a 1/30; Zombie and Evil Ents are also options for different effects)

So my opinion is that, if dusk rats were no longer able to be transformed into nobody would use the spell other than a stepping stone to the next level, and even then the other 3 spells are easier to work. So that probably is a bad choice- the next thing I would look at would be whether range weapons should be usable when transformed into monsters that do not traditionally have a ranged attack - but checking that shows the only monsters that 'sort of' work would be fae, living trees, fungust beast, orc wizards.. they have at least 1 non-melee attack.

I still think the current setup is better than both of those alternatives - and it is tough to try to incentivize other monsters without adding HitSideEffect to more things, but that is a whole other idea.
Delerium
Site Admin
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:33 am

Re: Few issues

Post by Delerium » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:46 am

lostm59 wrote:Illusionary form needs a slight fix, as any faction but duke its nearly impossible to use this spell. 2 Riija shrines a riija robe a herald and a riija sword and I still cannot get dusk rat.
EvilSibhod already covered this really well but I'd add that dusk rat is easily the best/most popular choice for illusionary form, so it doesn't seem unbalanced to require high spellpower to get this mob.
Purge is nearly unusable, The effect itself isnt bad but I feel that 19 base mana is too high now that it take 4-5 to clean one target. I think a fair base mana would be 10 which would bring shal back into the fold without making it purge an auto win.
It's actually 15 base mana, 13 mana if cast over 80 spellpower and 11 mana if you have a high rank cess shield. The intention with the purge change was to make fights not revolve around clearing all buffs from a target at the outset of a fight, and while you can still achieve this you'll have to pay for it with half or more of your mana bar.
Invis rings being karma dependent was a change requested before the purge nerf, Since it takes 4-5 purges to remove buffs( and even then high modifier spells like aog/ee tend to stay up) I do not feel a shal with an invis ring is too over powered as it once was.
This is a good point, would like to hear what others think about removing the karma restriction on invis rings.
As it stands the game has reverted to the Ren build where 80% of characters have qor.
Shal really needs more options to make it an attractive school compared to Qor but the answer there isn't to buff purge, I think we can do better than that.
Tegin
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:31 am

Re: Few issues

Post by Tegin » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:07 am

Shal really needs more options to make it an attractive school compared to Qor but the answer there isn't to buff purge, I think we can do better than that.
If you fought against a jala sha charakter you will get stripped of all you buffs no matter what and this char should not be able to use an invis ring.

What about a melee dmg shield which returns 30% of the dmg... or a 5 to 10 second self dmg / attack speed buff or a heal over time with 5 ticks ?
Or something like karahol but instead of being hold after the duration it will cast purge on you?
Cenasi
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:30 pm

Re: Few issues

Post by Cenasi » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Again your not looking at shall for what it is. Is purge a bit broken well I will agree somewhat but not completely, 4-5 cast to wipe the target clean is a lot but its situational if your relying on your purge to win a fight your playing the build wrong , might as well play a pfer or a qor toon. Purge as it stands is very situational, I will beat you with a 3schooler shall vs a 3schooler qor no prob without purge or maybe a cast or 2 of it, its not an opener spell like ie dazzle blind hold etc.
EvilSibhod
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:47 am
Location: United States

Re: Few issues

Post by EvilSibhod » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:39 pm

Honestly I think purge sits in a better position right now under the case of a few assumptions.
Due to the interface for every official client build (an unmodified build of the classic client from the github repo, or the latest build of the .NET client) it is more than trivial to actively monitor the (we'll use the term) spellpower of your personal enchantments, while in combat.

So what I mean is, someone buffs with 99spellpower for all their buffs. At the start of combat they get hit with a Purge and now all of their enchantments are recast at lower (mostly unknown) spellpowers that would require manually checking each one or blindly recasting each one.
On that note- sure it is possible to add a more detailed 'HUD' but this is not that kind of game. From a roleplaying perspective, you would know that your spells have been weakened through dealing less damage / taking more damage, and reacting accordingly.

Then you've got the chance of whether they noticed the purge in the first place (some measure of skill involved by the purgee) but not seeing an enchantment disappear suddenly, certainly increases the possibility of them not realizing it immediately.


I don't typically comment on the straight up PvP only spells like this, let alone Purge (as I've never built a shal toon beyond 30hp) so my thoughts are mostly theoretical.
HazZy
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:59 am

Re: Few issues

Post by HazZy » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:12 pm

So what I mean is, someone buffs with 99spellpower for all their buffs. At the start of combat they get hit with a Purge and now all of their enchantments are recast at lower (mostly unknown) spellpowers that would require manually checking each one or blindly recasting each one.
Exactly. If you get purged 2-3 times, you may still have half of your buffs on your UI, but they are very low spell power.

But then again, m59 had always favored the offensive, aggressive play style -> apply pressure efficiently and effectively and cause your enemy to go on the defense then you're going to win most of the time.

Purges offensive factor has been reduced for the reasons the OP listed - primarily armor of gort (has the highest purge resistance). Because every spell has a static purge resistance factor, we know that (assuming 99 sp) every fight, the amount of times needed to purge someone to remove xyz spell(s), and this reduces the efficiency factor of the spell because...
...
Knowing that 4-5 purges is required every fight to remove armor of gort (for example), will you cast it? Well, that depends...Is it a 1v1? Is it worth the cost (both opportunity and mana) or is it more effective to do something else etc.

If your create a cost/benefit workflow chart in your mind for 1v1 and team fight situations, you'll see that purge is still very effective it's just not as efficient as it was before.

So what's the solution? Remove armor of gort from the game, decrease deflects effectiveness by 25%, make dispel illusion effect everyone on the screen, make jala spells as powerful as AMA, make blind, hold and dazzle all have a 1/2 second focus timer and remove the post cast global on hold (already exists on 105) and last but not least, add DAFS to the mollusk loot table at the same rate as BDS and decrease the Ruby drop rate by 50%.

TLDR *** remove armor of gort from the game ***
lostm59
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:31 pm

Re: Few issues

Post by lostm59 » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:32 pm

I don't expect purge to remove all buffs. As hazzy said Aog is problematic. A 1 sp Aog still reduces damage about 42%. As the cap is 34 on a shielded/red/war toon (29 for a white non war) and aog reduces it from that down to 15 if an unded weapon 20 if dedicated. So yes aog is the main issue, but i dont feel we should just have to wait for a aog rewrite when as it stands we could easily change the modifer/factor for aog from 20 ie 5 purges to about 30-50 ie 2-3 purges. And this just until we rewrite aog into a damage reduction % based on sp ie at 99 sp aog will reduce damage say 35-40%(obviously numbers need testing) and a 1 sp gort reducing damage by at most .5%.

But a level 5 spell basically only being used in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation seems strange. In a bigger fight purging is an absolute waste of time unless your going to purge one of them 5 times to remove gort and make a hard swap. Blind/lb/et/aog/rm are all lvl 5 spells used every single fight basically, and you can see the issue.

Shal bowers are basically pfers who can heal in bigger fights and goes against the shal archtype for the last decade.

I am in no way saying that the 1 purge all buffs dropped wasnt very very strong but we went from OP to so situational a 3 school shal bower could not even have purge on his bars if he only did big fights.
HazZy
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:59 am

Re: Few issues

Post by HazZy » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:20 pm

I agree with the simple fix to a big issue - change the purge factor of gort so it is removed by the 1st or 2nd purge on a 99 spell power purge cast.
Post Reply